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The classical ideal of learning thrives in Net-based classrooms
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New "Blade Runner" game reviewed
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Microsoft -- along with the rest of the computer industry -- knows what's best for you
(01/16/98)

Clone wars
By Andrew Brown
Andrew Brown reviews Gina Kolata's "Clone" and Lee Silver's "Remaking Eden"
(01/15/98)

Let a hundred modems bloom
By Andrew Leonard
As the Net grows in China, the authorities keep looking for ways to control it
(01/14/98)

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You talk a lot in the book about face-to-face events, some of which have an official imprimatur on them -- like Echo's twice monthly parties at New York's Art Bar -- and some of which have arisen informally from the members. With Table Talk, it's harder to coordinate F2Fs, because everybody's so spread out. We've had people get together on a local level, but it's not like everybody's in the same town (88 percent of Echo's members live in New York).

I think that if you have local gatherings you'll achieve the same thing. Just knowing that some people are getting together is still valuable. You trust people's judgments. If someone new comes on and he's kind of weird, but some of the old-timers say, "I've met him; he's OK," the others will be more accepting.

Why is that F2F connection, even secondhand, so important?

You have to meet the people. It's the only way to create an air of tolerance. If you have nothing but a virtual relationship to someone it is not enough; it doesn't satisfy the soul.

But some people are online precisely to avoid that kind of intimacy. What about people who not only don't want F2F communication, they want total anonymity? Whenever we've tried to remind people to register and post in Table Talk with their real names, or when we started e-mail verification, we've had a section of the population get mad at us.

I went through the same thing on Echo, and I just insisted you have to use your real name. At the time, with the exception of the Well, every place was anonymous. I thought it was just that people hate change, but it's interesting to hear people still have that reaction. I guess anonymity is still the rule. People are used to that protection, or what they perceive as protection. My response is that you do have anonymity -- it's not like you're there in the same room with everybody.

I agree -- you still choose what about yourself you want to reveal. But I sometimes feel conflicted when a woman says she needs to be anonymous because she's afraid of getting hassled.

When women say they need to be anonymous because they're in more danger, I say, "But when no one is anonymous, you're in less danger."

Because the kinds of people who get off on bothering you are less likely to hang out here.

And when it happens on Echo, I can step in and if necessary take action.

There's obviously a lot of distance built in to Net culture, but there's never total anonymity anywhere, online or off. You say it in the book: "We can't leave ourselves behind online."

You can't hide forever. Over time, you can't help being yourself. Eventually it'll come out accidentally, or you won't be able to resist saying something revealing. The Nazi [an Echoid fond of expounding on National Socialism and topics like "the Jewish sickness"] had been on Echo for years before it came out.

Why do you think he finally exposed his views?

He might have been bored and wondered what kind of reaction he'd get. We're very liberal here, we have a lot of Jewish people, I think he wanted to see if something would happen.

How do you handle it when someone decides to make a scene? Do you e-mail, do you confront the person in public, do you advise others to ignore it?

All of the above. It depends on the person and the situation. If it's someone who's a long-term member who we basically like, we'll let him go.

And then do you get accused of favoritism? You want to be fair in dealing with everybody, but some people seem to think a host is supposed to be some kind of automaton.

I don't expect perfection from my friends, so how can I be perfect? I just hope that when things get out of hand people will point it out.

So what do you do when there's a fight and someone says you're siding with one person over another?

I'll say, "What would you like me to do?" That's usually all they need. I guess they just want validation.

There are people who get surprised or angry when you react in a human way, but I think it's part of why they care so much about places like Echo and Table Talk. People get kicked off AOL every day, and it doesn't bother them, it's just "rules are rules." But when there's flexibility, you get people who are more invested in putting down roots with you.

It makes sense. If I went to some town and I didn't like it and they kicked me out, I wouldn't care. But if they kicked me out of New York, I'd be devastated.

You spend a lot of "Cyberville" talking about the worst moments in Echo's history, devoting an entire section to the people you've kicked off. Why did you choose to focus on those things?

I did that because these books about cyberspace are always saying, "Oh how wonderful this all is!" and I thought I'd talk about the other stuff. What can you say about success? Failures are more interesting to deconstruct.

So in all this deconstruction, what have you learned from Echo? What surprised you?

It surprised me how intolerant people are. Not just about the Nazi, but about anything or anyone different. I was surprised how little people want to examine things -- but they're only that way if they don't have to consider them. When I put the decision in their hands, then they respond closer to how I respond, which is to wait before kicking people off. It's "Off with their heads!" if I have to decide.

Do you worry that that kind of "Off with their heads!" attitude makes Echo unwelcoming to newcomers?

Sometimes I scream at the Echoids, "Don't you want us to be successful? Why are you scaring the new people away?" It's the downside of a small town. You move to New York and it's not that difficult to find your way. When you move to a small town it's harder to find acceptance. It's a constant problem, but friendships take time. I tell people that when they come online. You can't expect people to be friends with you right away.

Speaking of newcomers, one of the things I related to the most in the book was when you defined some of the meanest people in cyberspace as the utopians. When someone gets on Table Talk and is a loudmouth or has a pet agenda, I can deal with it. But when I see someone who says that this is the greatest thing that's ever happened to him, that he's entered some perfect new world, I think, "Now we're in trouble." Because inevitably one day something is going to happen that bursts his bubble, and he's going to turn on us, and it's going to be ugly.

They're so mean! I guess it's a cliché, but the higher your expectations, the harder your fall. These people get online and expect everyone to love them. Then they get really mean, and then everybody gets mad at them. They say, "People are picking on me!" and I tell them, "You called us 'loser scum' and you're surprised people don't like you?"

Do you think now that Echo's been around a while, the dramas and fights don't feel as scary? When you're just starting out, it's harder not to think of every argument as a threat to the ecosystem.

It's a lot easier now. I don't react as strongly to things after having gone through it all before. I'm a lot more relaxed now that I've learned a thing or two.

And you also talk about how you have other interests, like dancing and playing drums.

That was my midlife crisis. I turned 40, and I realized I don't have my whole life ahead of me to do these things.

That's another thing: Life is too short. When I first got online, it was harder for me to get perspective. I wouldn't think to turn off the computer when something was upsetting me. Now I think being able to get outside helps me when I'm online. And it seems the people who do best online are people whose whole lives aren't about being online.

If you don't have much of an outside life, your online life is going to be much more important, and you'll make too much of everything. People get immersed when they first go online, but if you're a normal person, eventually that'll even out.

And if you're not a normal person, it'll become apparent pretty quickly. When you see some of the people you define in the book as "freaks," do you wonder about who they were before they found you?

If someone is spending 200 hours a month online, you have to wonder what he did before. It would be better if he had a life, but if you unplugged Echo it wouldn't necessarily be a kindness. Maybe he'd just watch TV instead. People say the Net brings out the worst in some people, and absolutely it does. But New York brings out the worst in some people, too. Every place does. And we're no different than any other community.
SALON | Jan. 21, 1998