There has been no basic change. The main force in Indonesia is the military. It is an extension of the Dutch East India Company, [which existed] even before the colonial state and it is practicing the same things as the military of the colonial state -- for example, exporting terror into the areas outside Java.

There is some threat that Indonesia may fall apart. Do you think it will?

The problem again lies with the army. Indonesia lies under the force of the army. This means that Indonesia is not seen as the maritime nation that it is. With the army in charge instead of a navy, the waters between the islands are seen as barriers. The sea has become a barrier separating one island from another, whereas if Indonesia were seen as a maritime nation, the sea would be seen as a means of communication. So long as the army mentality dominates, each island will be separate, and if the army continues in power then there is little hope in the future for Indonesia as a nation.

How can the ethnic Chinese in Indonesia protect themselves?

There are two problems. [One is that] the Chinese Indonesians don't have an association; they lack solidarity and they don't have a spokesman for their cause. The other is that over the years the government has used them as a scapegoats to cover up its own weaknesses. I've told them that they should create organizations and find a spokesman; this will enable them to withstand the efforts of the government to use them as scapegoats. Today we are beginning to see the formation of such associations.

The government has signed an agreement with Portugal on East Timor. Will the military let East Timor go?

The Indonesian army needs a target for all the weapons that they have accumulated from abroad. East Timor should be free to do what they feel they need to do. Indonesia should simply let them go. But the army has been using them for target practice. The irony of the situation is that Indonesia is a nation that fought against foreign occupation, but it became an occupying force. And this is again because of the army.

How do you think history will judge Suharto?

That's easy. History will judge Suharto as a criminal -- for his crimes against humanity, for the massacres of the people, for the deprivation of their rights without trial, for all the killings that he perpetrated. Every human being has the right to bring charges against Suharto for his crimes against humanity. His whole rule was a huge lie against humanity. Compared to this, all the other crimes -- like corruption -- are petty crimes.

How can Indonesia overcome the legacies of Suharto's rule?

There are two possibilities. The first is to support the young people in the reform movement. The second is a social revolution. If the young people are not supported, then there will be a revolution, and Indonesia will be wiped off the face of the earth.

Amien Rais, Megawati Sukarnoputri and Abdurrahman Wahid are all presenting themselves as democratic replacements for Suharto. What do you think of them?

None of these people have been tested by history. The only national leader that Indonesia has produced is Sukarno. Since then Indonesia has not produced a national leader, and that is a great pity.

Does Indonesia, a nation of 210 million people, need a great leader, or can it find a political system that doesn't depend on the forceful vision of one person?

It is possible, but up to now it hasn't happened.

Why not?

There has been, from the beginning, a major flaw in the concept of the nation as one people, whereas in reality Indonesia consists of many different ethnicities. These are not simply little minorities but nations in themselves, peoples in themselves with their own cultures. The idea of one people has eliminated the notion of these ethnicities having their own systems. This is where the flaw lies. There has never been an Indonesian people. There is just an Indonesian nation.
salon.com | June 4, 1999

- - - - - - - - - - - -

- - - - - - - - - - - -

  Get a printer-friendly version

  E-mail a friend about this article

  Backflip this article to find it again

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Search Salon