D R A M A++Q U E E N

What's the sleaziest thing you've ever done? Come clean in Drama Queen for a Day
(04/14/98)

T A B L E++T A L K

Is there such a thing as Middle Child Syndrome? Share your thoughts on being or raising a middle child in Table Talk

THE HAPPY PRISONER | PAGE 3 OF 3

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Now you're in a fix, courtesy of Kenneth Starr. Have you ever met him?

I've never spoken to Ken Starr directly, but to people in his office.

What was it like being questioned by the independent counsel's office?

At my trial, several witnesses were asked that question and to a person, they said they had felt intimidated, harassed, threatened. And you've heard Monica Lewinsky's mother's story of intimidation. I'm not easily intimidated. I had two lawyers with me at my first meeting with them. I went in with the idea that I would tell them everything I knew, that I would look at documents, I would answer everything and I would get some sense of what they thought the crime was. That's all I wanted from that first meeting -- just tell me what the crime is, and I'll tell you what I know.

But that didn't happen?

In the first seconds of the meeting -- I mean we had just gotten there -- they said, "We're going to offer you global immunity." They said they had talked to my California prosecutor [regarding the embezzlement charges] and that those charges would be handled. They said they wouldn't charge me with anything in Whitewater. They told me that all they wanted was a proffer [an outline of what would be offered as testimony under oath] against Bill or Hillary Clinton.

And you said?

I said: "I don't need global immunity because I'm not guilty of anything. I didn't do anything wrong in Whitewater, and I'm not guilty in California. You can forget the global immunity. But I will tell you what I know." And they said, "No. We want a proffer. And the proffer has to be against them."

Then what happened?

We had already determined before we walked in there that if they weren't going to let me just talk to them, we were going to walk out. The press was waiting outside and the independent counsel asked me to leave out the back of the building because they didn't want me talking to the press. I said, "No. I am going to go out there and tell them that you offered me global immunity for crimes if I would just give you something." If I am guilty of those crimes, why offer me immunity? It is just wrong. From the very first words out of their mouths, the tone was wrong, everything was wrong.

You don't sound as if you were particularly intimidated.

I grew up in a household with an Army sergeant. He is a one-man bulldozer, and I am not easily intimidated. And besides that, I had no belief that a crime had been committed. None. It would be like the police calling you in for questioning on a murder when you knew you had nothing to do with it -- you would go in pretty confident.

So how do your parents feel about you being in here?

No one wanted me to go to jail. The first real battle that I had was with my mom and dad. I sat down with my whole family and said, "I have come to a decision. It is clear in my mind that I am going to have to go to jail. I just want all of you to be OK with that, because I don't want any guilt when I go." So, we battled it out. We are a very vocal family -- screaming, crying, beating of chests -- you can't imagine. My mother was weeping.

I have a younger brother who is a minister, and he really didn't want me to go to jail. I was sitting on the floor at my mother's knees, talking to her, in her face, trying to reassure her. She said, "Don't you know anything you could give them?" I said, "Mom, I swear I don't." At that point, my mother, who is Belgian, said, "This is just like it was in Belgium during the war, where people were threatened to turn Jews in, to turn in neighbors."

David Hale made a $300,000 loan to you, and claimed that you know Bill Clinton pressured him to make it. How well do you know David Hale?

I remember seeing him twice in my life. The first time he was in a local election race, giving a speech. I thought he was a nice, quiet guy. The second time I saw him was when I went in to sign the loan document. He gave testimony at my trial, and said, "To my recollection, I have seen her for maybe 20 minutes of my life." He didn't remember me. I am having more of a conversation with you than I ever did with him.

There have been stories that Hale allegedly received payments from the anti-Clinton Arkansas Project. He has denied it. What do you think?

When he went before the [Whitewater] grand jury I knew he was lying so he would get his sentence reduced. I could see that this was a desperate man, and he was doing what he thought he needed to do to protect his family. When I heard these latest allegations, I thought, Hale's ability to con is just remarkable. He is walking around out there now, and I am still in jail, so he's better than I am at convincing people of things! I am not terribly surprised about the allegations.

Mark Geragos: Hale was instrumental in Susan's thought process when she went to jail in the first place. She figured, if I am going to go in front of the grand jury, and they have already vouched for David Hale, and I know David Hale is lying, then how are they ever going to accept what I know to be the truth?

If Starr's case against you is based on a lie, what do you think his motives are?

I believe -- and this is something I've never said before -- that Ken Starr is being paid to do this. I think the Pepperdine job was a payoff. This is just a belief of mine, I don't know that. But no man would do the things he's done without some gain at the end. And that is why I hold him in such absolute loathing.

What is it like now in prison, being with all women?

I had never lived with women before this. I grew up with all these brothers. I never wanted to live with women but now I've gotten to the point where I'm starting to feel some affinity towards women. It's good to have women friends.

You had never had women friends in the past?

I married Jim when I was young, and we didn't have friends really. We had business friends like the Clintons and the Tuckers. But we spent most of our time together. After I divorced Jim I got into a slump of working and then schlepping home. So this is the first time I've communed with women.

Does it ever get hairy in here?

Oh yes. There are fistfights. There are black eyes, broken noses, broken bones. Women can be fairly violent when they are enclosed. When I got to federal prison and met women who are facing 20, 30 years or life in jail -- it was unbelievable to me because these women are savable. I've rarely met a women in prison that I felt was so lost that she couldn't redeem herself or find a place in society. I'm a mother figure to some of the younger girls and it's a good feeling because I don't have any children of my own. It makes me happy.
SALON | April 22, 1998